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VGCW Suggestions and Feedback; Ideas welcome!
Topic Started: Jul 29 2015, 03:07 PM (57,530 Views)
MacScrewedMac
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Guile did nothing wrong
JCW555
Mar 1 2016, 09:34 PM
I guess I'll say this.

Stop with the WWE-esque booking please. That's all I'll say on the matter,
When you put it like that we should be counting our blessings
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AaronTheBaron
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Yo, it's me. It's me. It's A.T.B.
Prozach
Mar 1 2016, 09:41 PM
Choco Nath
Mar 1 2016, 09:33 PM
Prozach
Mar 1 2016, 09:18 PM
OK, I'll be frank: you want to know why viewership is dropping?

Shit like this.
If it happened all the time I could understand where you're coming from. It was a bold move no doubt but what it does do it gets people talking and gets people interested.

Bison in my opinion needed to do something on this level for me to feel he is an actual threat to the roster. I now want to see next week more than ever I want to see how that match ended. Trust the angle and wait to see what happens next episode.
Alright this is fair. I'll qualify it by saying that VGCW has not had an issue with this up until now.

It's just that it's now a universal thing across all shows, and this creative direction is flatout exhausting to watch everywhere. I just want to have fun without getting blueballed by creator interference whenever there's the opportunity.
But TOH isn't interfering whenever there's an opportunity. It's choice select places.

Why did Bison attack Vegeta/Scorpion? To establish that Shadaloo was here.

Why did Bison do this? To show the force of Shadaloo in a way that impacts not only the wrestlers and the staff, but the fans as well. To make sure they everyone knew he meant business.

The creators making plot in matches happening here is calculated, and it's to make sure that everyone knows that Bison is a huge heel, and that everyone hates Bison.

They could easily pull a WWE, and have Asura/Falcon interfere during the Tag Title Match. But they didn't. Heck, Asura/Falcon could have interfered with any match they wanted. But they didn't. The main event match still went on, it could have been an exact copy of Scorpion/Vegeta. But it wasn't.

The choices for when to use plot is calculated in order to make sure everyone knows Shadaloo means business with minimal interference in the actual matches. And this was a choice in order to be the Bison's Ultimate Display.
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NottyRose
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A rose, by any other name...
I mean, this is a show that gave us the big enforcer Armstrong getting lolscooped by Nappa, a five minute MitB match, and fucking Dante losing to Virgil.

If you're the type of person who is in this just for random numbers producing 'lolsofunny' moments, then you were really well served today.

The main event was very, very clearly an outlier, and I feel like it should be treated as such.
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Sciencejoe
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AigisCoin Investor
(I have a TLDR at the bottom. Apologies for the wall of text! I probably said something stupid or incorrect in here, so please call me out if I did. I hope no one in the nWtoh, creators, writers, or what-have-you take any personal offense to anything I say. I apologize if I come off as a jerk.)

Okay, so!

I feel bad for not posting stuff earlier, especially when you asked.

So, quick backstory since that's not really important: I've been watching VGCW since it started being recorded on Twitch. Around...November 19-20, 2012, I think? I've seen stuff. I saw Gief get screwed, I saw WV start, I saw SNST, blah blah blah. Point is, I'm old.

While I'm certainly no recognizable face of the community, I hope my word can be taken with some seriousness.

Up until the end of Blood Money, I really didn't see anything wrong with VGCW or its other shows as a whole. I was just as lost as TOH when it came to viewer count falling.

Do I think it's his fault? Any of the showrunners? AI wrestling getting stale? No, not really.

But, yes, Blood Money was a thing. And, I'm sure as soon as I post this, the forums will already be alight with people calling for TOH's head, and some (hopefully) calmer folks who could agree and disagree as well.

But I think I see the flaw:

VGCW, WVGCW, and EDBW need to stop having fixed stuff interrupt potential.

I'm not saying that to shill or get people to watch BWA, this isn't me trying to suck up to Belmont. All former ARENA players and the man himself book for BWA, but no one has ever, EVER forced a match to go one way or the other...yet. I don't think that will happen, but I sure as hell don't want it to.

I love all of these shows and I think they're great! But I think the fact that people are losing interest might be because of this.

"What stuff is fixed in the VGCW Universe?"

Well, I have no idea if it is, but it sure does feel like it.

EDBW...well, okay, it's kind of hard to deny it here. The last show alone had a plot-based ending; Recette assisted Tom Nook in his match against King Dedede, and, as Dudebro himself pointed out after tonight's cancellation by Bison, screwing with his title matches isn't anything new.

I've complained about EDBW a lot on the forums--so much so that I'm sure John hates my guts and wants me to die (I kid...I hope)--but I still like aspects of it! Some of my favorite characters are there, the matches are memorable, and EDBW can now have the aspect of being "fun" without worrying about being a developmental league...which, in my opinion, it sort of stopped becoming after the first Killscreen or two.

WVGCW? I feel as though a pretty prominent example is going on right now; Kitana in her journey towards Sindel. And I'm not talking about Kitana fighting two tables stacked on top of each other! I could be wrong, but WVGCW is a pre-recorded show, and I find it a bit hard to believe Kitana won SO MANY MATCHES purely of her own accord...on the first try, at least.

Other examples include Lynne's debut match in WV--BRYN likes Ghost Trick, so that didn't really surprise me--and probably something else I'll whine and complain about later.

VGCW? Easily one of the most pure, I think, both under Bazza and TOH. While I'm sure there's an example besides tonight, I can't really think of one at the current moment. If I do, I'll try and add future thoughts.

In any case, what does all this have in common?

It's screwing with another CAW or killing creative possibilities.

Both of these things, I feel, are immensely upsetting.

I don't know what TOH plans, so I can't judge. Has Barret/Dracula concluded by the time I've written this? Will we go into next week's show without Barret? Will they have a rematch?

That's only for TOH to know...for now. But, regardless of what happens, I feel as though this is a bullet to the foot for both parties. Barret is easy; putting his very CAREER--well, existence as a CAW in this case--on the line against everyone's favorite creature of the night. This isn't fair for him; he was doing fairly well in his match! Either he's getting the boot without us being able to witness the REAL results, or perhaps he'll get a rematch which he'll end up losing horribly.

Dracula, fortunately, doesn't have to worry about much. If a rematch takes place, that either means he'll keep his reign like nothing happened, or he loses the title and disappears for a while. Which would be a shame; he's very entertaining both in plot and in matches.

WVGCW is next.

While I don't have Kitana's tower matches saved to my memory, I'm sure people who probably could've used a win or two lost because Kitana needs to get her rematch against her mother. Their credibility is dashed. Permanently? Possibly. Temporarily? Also possibly. In any case, I'm sure this could have been avoided if...well, Kitana just challenged her mother normally for a rematch. Or if Kitana had to win a smaller amount of matches to earn the right. Instead, we push for Kitana to earn the privilege to fight someone she already fought while harming others.

Meryl was the person defeated by Lynne...I don't really know if anyone truly loves Meryl, so perhaps this example is a lot less egregious.

Onto EDBW!

Morrigan vs Sophitia was a crime. I can harp on it for hours, but to put it short and sweet, it was just as unfair as any other example on here. Including tonight. Morrigan already won under very shady and disliked pretenses. If she won legitimately, that would've been fine! But instead, Morrigan cheated her way to victory, making no one except the showrunners happy. Oh, and the people who like Morrigan. Which I'm sure exist; I say that without sarcasm.

Tom Nook vs King Dedede: also unfortunate. Tom Nook won through false means, even having a manager to add to his already stacked deck. But, to be fair, Recette had to be there for the plot to work.

In any case, while all of this is, in my opinion, unfair, it DOES have a purpose:

With the exception of Kitana (and Lynne...I think?), this makes ALL characters look like wonderful heels.

They're jerks! They're acting like jerks! That is what heels do! This is fine!

It's wrestling! You need story! You need purpose for these two guys to beat the snot out of each other! You need a reason to have someone you can pour all your hate into! Who would read a Marvel comic without bad guys?! That's stupid. You NEED conflict in any story.

All showrunners in VGCW have fun, unique, and cool ideas for angles. That's for certain. I love the storytelling; hell, without storytelling, VGCW would've bit the dust long ago. The Soviet Screwjob gave VGCW life and made it even more fun than it already was. The GameShark was fun! Chie defeating her Stone Cold shadow was interesting! And while EDBW has only really started getting plot, I really liked where Arthas and Shovel Knight's allegiance was going!

But, here's the important thing:

Stories are good. But people come for the wrestling.

Faces, heels, and angles exist to supplement the wrestlers. To give them life and purpose. But, once they have that, they need to actually wrestle! Their wrestling should be the end of the story, should it be the chosen end of the writer. Obviously, you have more than one match in a storyline, but there are some things that just shouldn't be interrupted if there's enough reason to care.

It doesn't only kill people's faith in a character. It kills their faith in the show.

I don't know if that's why VGCW has less viewers...I know I'm not giving up on the shows! But if we could put wrestling before story, I think it would get more.

Let nature take its course. Don't force things to go your way. React to what happens in this stupid fucking buggy wrestling video game, and everyone will be a lot happier for it.

TL;DR


Edited by Sciencejoe, Mar 1 2016, 10:00 PM.
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Rude_Semprini
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Honestly, this all feels like it was a pretty bad idea, but if things are being controlled like this, the payoff is gonna be something huge. REALLY huge.

Think about this. Does anyone think we would ever be this invested in BARRET? We weren't. The plot MADE us invested. Everything that built this up, every promo, every scene, made us root for Barret one last time. It made us care about someone who we'd all collectively decided was pointless.

And they threw that away. WILLINGLY, threw that away.

No one would do that without a reason. If this is the straw that breaks the camels back for some people and makes them leave, it's a massive shame, but it's understandable. A lot of people don't WANT this kind of thing to happen. A lot of people would hugely prefer a clean ending and THEN Bison would attack.

But this sort of raw anger, the emotion? That wouldn't have happened without this. It's something I've never seen ANY show, video game related or not, manage to make me feel.

So I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm blue balled. But I want to see more. If you don't, I understand completely. But I'm holding out faith. After all, we only care this much about this at all because of the writing so far. Maybe we can count on the writing afterwards to do the same?
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Prozach
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NOPE.
AaronTheBaron
Mar 1 2016, 09:51 PM
But TOH isn't interfering whenever there's an opportunity. It's choice select places.

Why did Bison attack Vegeta/Scorpion? To establish that Shadaloo was here.

Why did Bison do this? To show the force of Shadaloo in a way that impacts not only the wrestlers and the staff, but the fans as well. To make sure they everyone knew he meant business.

The creators making plot in matches happening here is calculated, and it's to make sure that everyone knows that Bison is a huge heel, and that everyone hates Bison.

They could easily pull a WWE, and have Asura/Falcon interfere during the Tag Title Match. But they didn't. Heck, Asura/Falcon could have interfered with any match they wanted. But they didn't. The main event match still went on, it could have been an exact copy of Scorpion/Vegeta. But it wasn't.

The choices for when to use plot is calculated in order to make sure everyone knows Shadaloo means business with minimal interference in the actual matches. And this was a choice in order to be the Bison's Ultimate Display.
If we're getting into the storyline itself, then even then I'm not that happy because I do think it's the weakest and lamest writing you could possibly do in this scenario.

Compare this storyline to Season 2's Mr. L plot. The entire storyline was dictated both by what happened in the game and what the crowd bought into it. Bazza provided the outline, but everything else was filled in by the reactions of the fans. And what happened? The crowd ate that shit up. Bazza knew how to get a crowd invested with the basics of a storyline while still being hands-off enough to let everything happen naturally and end up more impactful. And even now, the keyfabe of "Who is Mr. L?" is maintained to this day, because Bazza respected the intelligence of his audience to buy into his storylines and go along with what he wanted to show. Bazza had some "interesting" approaches to booking and whatnot, but the thing he was best at was writing a compelling storyline and getting the audience to invest in it without hitting the easy button.

And that's what this was: easy. It's the ol' standby in WWE for how to get heel heat for a reason, because it's so damn easy to do if you want to get boos. Yeah, of course people are going to be pissed off at Bison now for interfering with the match. Doesn't mean that the storyline itself is any more interesting for it, because fucking anyone could do that. If you really wanted Dan to turn heel you can easily just have him smirking at the screen when the show cuts to black. It's not complex, it's not entertaining, it's not well-devloped, it's just a swift kick in the nads based on not having the creativity to MAKE your characters interesting on their own merits.
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Rude_Semprini
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And honestly, I'm seeing a lot of people saying "This sort of thing is why people aren't watching" but if that was really the case, why wasn't that being said a whole bunch more BEFORE this happened?
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McJohnson88

Honestly, I didn't like that ending myself, but I'll leave that aside 'cause as anticlimactic as it was I'll admit it does lead in some really interesting directions...

BUT, I will question the timing of it. Like, literally a week after this thread gets bumped 'cause we're trying to figure out why the show's haemorrhaging viewers, and the big PPV World Title Match ends on a huge, Base Breaking cliffhanger? Not exactly the best timing for something that ballsy, in my opinion!
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TOH
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More sizzle than a rasher of bacon.
Everyone's got their feelings on it all. What it at least proves to me is how invested people are in this, and I deeply appreciate that. Trust me in that I don't ever plan to throw my middle fingers to everyone. We wouldn't do this without a payoff. That's the big thing to remember, even if it's out of scope right now because the main event's ending has all the crosshairs on it.
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NCR_Ranger

I hope people can calm down, take a step back and hopefully come back next week to see what happens.
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NottyRose
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A rose, by any other name...
Rude_Semprini
Mar 1 2016, 10:01 PM
And honestly, I'm seeing a lot of people saying "This sort of thing is why people aren't watching" but if that was really the case, why wasn't that being said a whole bunch more BEFORE this happened?
It's certainly not the ONLY reason, but it's really hard to verify, so it's an easy claim to toss out there.

I personally think if this show was able to have been shown in WWE 2k16, we'd have had double the viewers.
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TOH
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More sizzle than a rasher of bacon.
Prozach
Mar 1 2016, 10:00 PM
And that's what this was: easy. It's the ol' standby in WWE for how to get heel heat for a reason, because it's so damn easy to do if you want to get boos. Yeah, of course people are going to be pissed off at Bison now for interfering with the match. Doesn't mean that the storyline itself is any more interesting for it, because fucking anyone could do that. If you really wanted Dan to turn heel you can easily just have him smirking at the screen when the show cuts to black. It's not complex, it's not entertaining, it's not well-devloped, it's just a swift kick in the nads based on not having the creativity to MAKE your characters interesting on their own merits.
That's what next week will address. We're not done yet. I want people to see it through. There's a payoff. Does it look lazy now? Yeah, maybe. But there's more to it, and it can't all be told in one episode.
Edited by TOH, Mar 1 2016, 10:08 PM.
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AaronTheBaron
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Yo, it's me. It's me. It's A.T.B.
McJohnson88
Mar 1 2016, 10:02 PM
Honestly, I didn't like that ending myself, but I'll leave that aside 'cause as anticlimactic as it was I'll admit it does lead in some really interesting directions...

BUT, I will question the timing of it. Like, literally a week after this thread gets bumped 'cause we're trying to figure out why the show's haemorrhaging viewers, and the big PPV World Title Match ends on a huge, Base Breaking cliffhanger? Not exactly the best timing for something that ballsy, in my opinion!
I will concede on that. In hindsight, it probably wasn't the best time to do a bump thread in terms of trying to figure out why viewers are leaving right before this. But then again, hindsight is 20/20. And I do worry that if we got viewers from the outreach campaigns that they may get upset with the ending, though I also think just as many would probably go "WTH just happened I have to see what happens next."
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TOH
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More sizzle than a rasher of bacon.
I knew the timing with this thread was going to be awkward. I did it so I could get perspective before this went down. Because if I did it after, it was potentially all going to be about Blood Money's ending.
Edited by TOH, Mar 1 2016, 10:10 PM.
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JCW555
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The Archives Guy
TOH
Mar 1 2016, 10:03 PM
Everyone's got their feelings on it all. What it at least proves to me is how invested people are in this, and I deeply appreciate that. Trust me in that I don't ever plan to throw my middle fingers to everyone. We wouldn't do this without a payoff. That's the big thing to remember, even if it's out of scope right now because the main event's ending has all the crosshairs on it.
I guess I'll say this to you TOH, and shut up now. Please ease up (or stop) on the blue-ball plots/matches. Please?
Edited by JCW555, Mar 1 2016, 10:12 PM.
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