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VGCW Suggestions and Feedback; Ideas welcome!
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Topic Started: Jul 29 2015, 03:07 PM (57,515 Views)
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GirthIgnorer
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May 18 2016, 01:08 AM
Post #526
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- Liquid
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The Flint/Drac promo was hot fire.
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Kirbydamasta
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Jun 14 2016, 08:27 PM
Post #527
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I can't say I'm a fan of the grimdark writing.
Really, the reason season 11 is widely regarded as one of the best VGCW seasons was because it didn't take itself too seriously. I hope that next season we can return to the formula that worked, since this experiment in darker plot and heels winning matches isn't working too well.
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Soundwave
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Jun 14 2016, 08:31 PM
Post #528
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- Does Little Mac count?
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I don't understand the booking of Asura vs Zangief. If it was the curtainjerk I'd understand, but outside of the curtain jerk Zangief is objectively garbage and hasn't won a match in yonks. Even if Asura won he'd have gained nothing by beating who was essentially a jobber. We know from Groose that he can potentially beat top carders, so he should have at least vsed somebody on the threshold of top card like Red or Heavy. Knuckles and Edgeworth too I guess, but you don't wanna book people two weeks in a row generally with how big the roster is. If he lost the consequences would be the same but at least he'd look great and scary with a win.
Anyway, he lost and the main point of credibility in Shadaloo is gone TT
Everything else seemed good though (y)
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MacScrewedMac
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Jun 14 2016, 08:41 PM
Post #529
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Guile did nothing wrong
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Flint had it worst. He just went from top face material who destroyed Bison to top heel material who could hang with Drac to comedy underling-tier who loses to Octodad
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VS21
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Jun 14 2016, 08:44 PM
Post #530
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RNG has just not been good to you....
You're a good plot writer TOH, don't let the game get you down....You can come back from this
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SyntheticPolygon
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Jun 14 2016, 08:51 PM
Post #531
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Honestly, I don't think Asura and Flint's losses really matter too much. Airman's had a couple of sudden and untimely losses to lowcarders (octodad being one of them) and it hasn't really messed with him all that much. Like, I guess it's unlucky for Flint since i'd have thought one more win would lock him in for a contendership shot next season, but sometimes you lose.
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Soundwave
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Jun 14 2016, 09:03 PM
Post #532
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- Does Little Mac count?
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- SyntheticPolygon
- Jun 14 2016, 08:51 PM
Honestly, I don't think Asura and Flint's losses really matter too much. Airman's had a couple of sudden and untimely losses to lowcarders (octodad being one of them) and it hasn't really messed with him all that much. Like, I guess it's unlucky for Flint since i'd have thought one more win would lock him in for a contendership shot next season, but sometimes you lose.
It was a bit different with Air Man because he didn't have any storylines that require his success to be at their best around him.
Anyway, I don't think Flint losing to Octodad was that bad. Octodad is actually quite solid these days, he just has a reputation as a joke wrestler still, seeing as he is, y'know, a joke character.
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NCR_Ranger
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Jun 14 2016, 09:13 PM
Post #533
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VGCW is adventure and that's why I keep coming back
Keep on keeping on
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Prozach
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Jun 14 2016, 09:46 PM
Post #534
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NOPE.
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I was debating on whether or not to post this at the end of the season or if I should just post it now, but I feel as though, after tonight’s show, it’s as prudent a time as ever to state this: I have not been enjoying this season. This is one of the first seasons in a long time that I feel has had the negatives outweigh the positives, and I’m finding myself losing interest in the entire show as a whole as a result. There are several big issues I feel that have been present throughout this season that I feel has weakened the show’s quality significantly.
The Matches Don't Matter Outside of Wily’s title surge, the only match this entire season that I felt had any true tangible impact on the overall direction of this season was Barret vs Dracula 1, and that match’s build was damaged irreparably by the decision to make plot supersede it in terms of importance. That decision to base the match around plot instead of basing plot around the match is pretty much a microcosm of the season as a whole really, meaning that I don’t really feel that anything anyone does in the ring really has any bearing on how the show is going to progress at all, because either the booking places people into stagnant spots with zero ability to obtain any sort of actual momentum (more on that in a bit) or the matches are trumped by plot devices that reduce the potential impact of the match into being insignificant in the long run. Another example of this is how Ganon vs. Edgeworth was treated. To be frank, the return to the beach was a filler episode, one of many this season. The only things from that show that really had any long-reaching impact whatsoever was Seifer participating in (and winning) a match and Edgeworth’s win. I was excited to see how Edgeworth’s big upset victory would be played off and how he would use that shocking win to boost himself up the card. Instead, his win is explained away as stemming from a plot device, and his next appearance is him being booked into a tournament where he had a 7/8 chance of losing all the momentum he would have gained (can’t really blame fan support for that happening either, since Edgeworth had approx. 20th most votes of people on the active roster and much less than his fellow staff member Armstrong). It’s just frustrating, because there’s just no big important moments anymore that don’t have creator influence muddling them up.
Booking Encourages Stagnant Momentum It doesn’t seem like anyone is allowed to stand out anymore, and the style of booking that’s been used this season replicates this. Far too often this season, it seems as though if someone gets a win on one episode, it’s incredibly likely they’re getting booked against someone who lost on that same episode. If the person that won that first match wins again, then nothing really happens because they didn’t really gain something from beating a person with negative momentum. If the person that won the first match loses, then NO ONE looks good and we’re stuck in a gigantic 50/50 booking quagmire where no one is special and everyone is just hanging around with zero ability to stand out. Exception to this is, again, Wily, who I feel is by far the wrestler handled best this season with no one else really coming close. It’s really tough to explain this point without showing what I mean, so I suggest just taking a look at the Momentum Rankings and comparing them to WVGCW’s Momentum Rankings. In WVGCW, I’d say you could make a serious case for contendership of some sort for the likes of The Boss, Morrigan, Jill, Sophitia, Jade, and Ema and Shantae for midcard. Looking at VGCW, I’d say you could say the same for, what, Vegeta and Cage for the main belt? Maybe Dan, I guess? And no one in the midcard has any sort of sustained momentum whatsoever. For the first time in probably forever, I feel as though WVGCW has more legitimate main event level stars on its roster than VGCW, because people are allowed to build up momentum against other people with momentum instead of being used to attempt to give everyone some sort of rub. Speaking of which
Need More Contendership Matches Going along with the first two points, the complete absence of contendership matches this season with two exceptions for the Casual belt is really lacking. There’s been two contendership matches for the main belt in the past year. To be frank, that’s fucking terrible. The decision to prolong the Dracula and Barret storyline out for an extra PPV has severely harmed Dracula’s reign, and I have a sinking feeling the feud with Phoenix is going to be dragged out until End Game as well when it just doesn’t need to be. It’s just like peoples’ complaints about how Red vs Scorpion froze the title scene for half a season, except made worse because it’s essentially been frozen for the entire season with zero legitimate contenders being decided for it! I hope that Phoenix vs Dracula happens before End Game so we can have at least one title match this season between a contender who fought to earn their spot and the champion, but I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that it’s not going to happen.
Several Individual Characters are Written Poorly I’m probably going to come across as harsh in this part, but I think these things really need to be as crystal clear as possible:
*Steven Fucking Armstrong does not fucking swear nearly as fucking much as you’re making him fucking swear both in fucking plot and on the fucking forums, and it’s a huge fucking step down from how he was fucking written before. Armstrong does NOT swear once every sentence like you’re making him out to do, he only swears when he’s making a legitimate point in his political speeches and whatnot. Armstrong’s first callout of Illidan back in Season 10 was handled pretty much perfectly, and I feel as though Armstrong’s current characterization is a biiiig step back from that into making him a carny loudmouth with no semblance of subtlety whatsoever.
*Blood Falcon is written like a 14 year old me discovering Linkin Park for the first time. The fact that “Captain Falcon doesn’t live here anymore!” was used as a legitimate piece of dialogue and was played completely seriously is just baffling to me and I am honestly shocked it was actually aired. There is no way that a character who said “Hell yeah!” THREE TIMES in ONE plotscene is a character I am legitimately supposed to do anything but laugh and cringe at. His writing this season is just as at fault for how he’s treated by the fans as much as his matches are.
*I still have no idea what Sho does, who he is, or why I should care. Based on what I know about his VGCW characterization, he’s a guy who thinks he’s cool that tries to shoehorn in as many math references as possible to make it seem like he’s a character with actual depth. I don’t THINK that’s right, I mean his promo against Liquid in EDBW made him seem like he’s more than just this weird dude that likes relying on catchphrases as a crutch. But it hasn’t shown itself at all in VGCW and I’m slowly losing all sense of intrigue in what he does in his career after he had multiple vignettes to hype up his debut in Season 11.
*I’m willing to give benefit of the doubt on this one because I think there’s other machinations at play here, but Asura’s writing is too one-note even for someone who is being coerced into acting evil. Right now he’s just “the angry guy” in Shadaloo when he could be a lot more than that.
Those are the big four, and there’s others I’m not really happy with either, but to balance out some of the bad with the good I enjoy the work that’s been done with Vegeta (and the rest of the court), Dracula, and Flint a bunch, and I think the way Team Rocket was used at Mega Evo is probably the best they’ve ever been used as characters in this medium.
The Characters You're Ignoring are your Actual Stars Right now, the people that have been performing the best this season are the people that are not involved in your major plotlines, which is concerning to me. Air Man, Groose, Layton, and ESPECIALLY Scorpion have been absolute studs in the ring this entire season, and I feel as though they should be rewarded for their solid performances this season much more than guys like Haggar (who I’ve already spoken a bunch about. To put it simply, not a fan).
So yeah, unfortunately I’m just not having fun with the show right now and I have some serious concerns about the direction this show’s been heading, especially in regards to how plot has been usurping the matches in terms of importance. Because of how much plot has taken control of this season, I’m finding myself with little reason to watch any of the non-PPV shows whatsoever and it’s no longer become a must-watch sort of program that I used to set aside parts of my schedule on Tuesdays for. I will say that I do think the “fun” things that have been promoted (like the money in the bank match and everything with Vegeta’s Court) have been really really fun, and the tag team scene is probably as lively as it’s ever been on the show (it’s bloated, but I understand why to allow it to function without handicapping people in singles), so it isn’t all bad. But overall I haven’t enjoyed this season nearly as much as I have Season 11.
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NCR_Ranger
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Jun 14 2016, 09:54 PM
Post #535
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I feel like how EDBW has handled the tag titles recently(getting new contenders for the PPV show while a title match as already in the works), should be a good example to follow for a title or two in VGCW, the Casual title I think would be good.
But on the other side of the coin, I like the tag team Beat the Clock
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KoopaLandInc
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Jun 14 2016, 10:07 PM
Post #536
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- Prozach
- Jun 14 2016, 09:46 PM
I was debating on whether or not to post this at the end of the season or if I should just post it now, but I feel as though, after tonight’s show, it’s as prudent a time as ever to state this: I have not been enjoying this season. This is one of the first seasons in a long time that I feel has had the negatives outweigh the positives, and I’m finding myself losing interest in the entire show as a whole as a result. There are several big issues I feel that have been present throughout this season that I feel has weakened the show’s quality significantly. The Matches Don't Matter Outside of Wily’s title surge, the only match this entire season that I felt had any true tangible impact on the overall direction of this season was Barret vs Dracula 1, and that match’s build was damaged irreparably by the decision to make plot supersede it in terms of importance. That decision to base the match around plot instead of basing plot around the match is pretty much a microcosm of the season as a whole really, meaning that I don’t really feel that anything anyone does in the ring really has any bearing on how the show is going to progress at all, because either the booking places people into stagnant spots with zero ability to obtain any sort of actual momentum (more on that in a bit) or the matches are trumped by plot devices that reduce the potential impact of the match into being insignificant in the long run. Another example of this is how Ganon vs. Edgeworth was treated. To be frank, the return to the beach was a filler episode, one of many this season. The only things from that show that really had any long-reaching impact whatsoever was Seifer participating in (and winning) a match and Edgeworth’s win. I was excited to see how Edgeworth’s big upset victory would be played off and how he would use that shocking win to boost himself up the card. Instead, his win is explained away as stemming from a plot device, and his next appearance is him being booked into a tournament where he had a 7/8 chance of losing all the momentum he would have gained (can’t really blame fan support for that happening either, since Edgeworth had approx. 20th most votes of people on the active roster and much less than his fellow staff member Armstrong). It’s just frustrating, because there’s just no big important moments anymore that don’t have creator influence muddling them up. Booking Encourages Stagnant Momentum It doesn’t seem like anyone is allowed to stand out anymore, and the style of booking that’s been used this season replicates this. Far too often this season, it seems as though if someone gets a win on one episode, it’s incredibly likely they’re getting booked against someone who lost on that same episode. If the person that won that first match wins again, then nothing really happens because they didn’t really gain something from beating a person with negative momentum. If the person that won the first match loses, then NO ONE looks good and we’re stuck in a gigantic 50/50 booking quagmire where no one is special and everyone is just hanging around with zero ability to stand out. Exception to this is, again, Wily, who I feel is by far the wrestler handled best this season with no one else really coming close. It’s really tough to explain this point without showing what I mean, so I suggest just taking a look at the Momentum Rankings and comparing them to WVGCW’s Momentum Rankings. In WVGCW, I’d say you could make a serious case for contendership of some sort for the likes of The Boss, Morrigan, Jill, Sophitia, Jade, and Ema and Shantae for midcard. Looking at VGCW, I’d say you could say the same for, what, Vegeta and Cage for the main belt? Maybe Dan, I guess? And no one in the midcard has any sort of sustained momentum whatsoever. For the first time in probably forever, I feel as though WVGCW has more legitimate main event level stars on its roster than VGCW, because people are allowed to build up momentum against other people with momentum instead of being used to attempt to give everyone some sort of rub. Speaking of which Need More Contendership Matches Going along with the first two points, the complete absence of contendership matches this season with two exceptions for the Casual belt is really lacking. There’s been two contendership matches for the main belt in the past year. To be frank, that’s fucking terrible. The decision to prolong the Dracula and Barret storyline out for an extra PPV has severely harmed Dracula’s reign, and I have a sinking feeling the feud with Phoenix is going to be dragged out until End Game as well when it just doesn’t need to be. It’s just like peoples’ complaints about how Red vs Scorpion froze the title scene for half a season, except made worse because it’s essentially been frozen for the entire season with zero legitimate contenders being decided for it! I hope that Phoenix vs Dracula happens before End Game so we can have at least one title match this season between a contender who fought to earn their spot and the champion, but I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that it’s not going to happen. Several Individual Characters are Written Poorly I’m probably going to come across as harsh in this part, but I think these things really need to be as crystal clear as possible:
*Steven Fucking Armstrong does not fucking swear nearly as fucking much as you’re making him fucking swear both in fucking plot and on the fucking forums, and it’s a huge fucking step down from how he was fucking written before. Armstrong does NOT swear once every sentence like you’re making him out to do, he only swears when he’s making a legitimate point in his political speeches and whatnot. Armstrong’s first callout of Illidan back in Season 10 was handled pretty much perfectly, and I feel as though Armstrong’s current characterization is a biiiig step back from that into making him a carny loudmouth with no semblance of subtlety whatsoever.
*Blood Falcon is written like a 14 year old me discovering Linkin Park for the first time. The fact that “Captain Falcon doesn’t live here anymore!” was used as a legitimate piece of dialogue and was played completely seriously is just baffling to me and I am honestly shocked it was actually aired. There is no way that a character who said “Hell yeah!” THREE TIMES in ONE plotscene is a character I am legitimately supposed to do anything but laugh and cringe at. His writing this season is just as at fault for how he’s treated by the fans as much as his matches are.
*I still have no idea what Sho does, who he is, or why I should care. Based on what I know about his VGCW characterization, he’s a guy who thinks he’s cool that tries to shoehorn in as many math references as possible to make it seem like he’s a character with actual depth. I don’t THINK that’s right, I mean his promo against Liquid in EDBW made him seem like he’s more than just this weird dude that likes relying on catchphrases as a crutch. But it hasn’t shown itself at all in VGCW and I’m slowly losing all sense of intrigue in what he does in his career after he had multiple vignettes to hype up his debut in Season 11.
*I’m willing to give benefit of the doubt on this one because I think there’s other machinations at play here, but Asura’s writing is too one-note even for someone who is being coerced into acting evil. Right now he’s just “the angry guy” in Shadaloo when he could be a lot more than that.
Those are the big four, and there’s others I’m not really happy with either, but to balance out some of the bad with the good I enjoy the work that’s been done with Vegeta (and the rest of the court), Dracula, and Flint a bunch, and I think the way Team Rocket was used at Mega Evo is probably the best they’ve ever been used as characters in this medium. The Characters You're Ignoring are your Actual Stars Right now, the people that have been performing the best this season are the people that are not involved in your major plotlines, which is concerning to me. Air Man, Groose, Layton, and ESPECIALLY Scorpion have been absolute studs in the ring this entire season, and I feel as though they should be rewarded for their solid performances this season much more than guys like Haggar (who I’ve already spoken a bunch about. To put it simply, not a fan). So yeah, unfortunately I’m just not having fun with the show right now and I have some serious concerns about the direction this show’s been heading, especially in regards to how plot has been usurping the matches in terms of importance. Because of how much plot has taken control of this season, I’m finding myself with little reason to watch any of the non-PPV shows whatsoever and it’s no longer become a must-watch sort of program that I used to set aside parts of my schedule on Tuesdays for. I will say that I do think the “fun” things that have been promoted (like the money in the bank match and everything with Vegeta’s Court) have been really really fun, and the tag team scene is probably as lively as it’s ever been on the show (it’s bloated, but I understand why to allow it to function without handicapping people in singles), so it isn’t all bad. But overall I haven’t enjoyed this season nearly as much as I have Season 11.
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Soundwave
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Jun 14 2016, 10:15 PM
Post #537
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- Does Little Mac count?
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Don't agree with Prozach's point on Sho. For me it's the opposite. Sho went from being a nobody EDBW graduate to one of my favourites just by how he's been written. It's unique and makes him stand out. I don't really know what Prozach wants. He's a guy who talks with lots of math lingo, that's his thing. Nearly everybody has a thing. Nappa is all caps guy, Arino is token Japanese cliche guy. Ebisumaru is creepy <3 guy.
Like he praises the court and people like Dracula and Flint, but I don't see how what Sho is presenting is any different. Look at some of his dialogue with Reyn. If you can't look past the fact he does lots of math talking I guess it seems like nonsense, but he is an actual human saying actual things.
EDIT: I think his point about 50/50 booking is his strongest one, though. People who won their last singles match need to be vsing people who also won their last singles match and are the closest to them on the ELO/Momentum tables, barring special circumstances like plot that demand different opponents.
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MaxOfFewTrades
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Jun 14 2016, 10:26 PM
Post #538
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When I brought up how certain characters are being written completely out of character, I was told. "That I shouldn't expect characters to be faithful to the source material" I disagree with that HEAVILY, but its apparently how the VGCW universe works, and I'm learning to deal with it, and I guess you need to do so as well.
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Prozach
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Jun 14 2016, 10:27 PM
Post #539
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NOPE.
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- Soundwave
- Jun 14 2016, 10:15 PM
Don't agree with Prozach's point on Sho. For me it's the opposite. Sho went from being a nobody EDBW graduate to one of my favourites just by how he's been written. It's unique and makes him stand out. I don't really know what Prozach wants. He's a guy who talks with lots of math lingo, that's his thing. Nearly everybody has a thing. Nappa is all caps guy, Arino is token Japanese cliche guy. Ebisumaru is creepy <3 guy.
Like he praises the court and people like Dracula and Flint, but I don't see how what Sho is presenting is any different. Look at some of his dialogue with Reyn. If you can't look past the fact he does lots of math talking I guess it seems like nonsense, but he is an actual human saying actual things. Again, look to the difference between Sho's promo in EDBW and how Sho's written here. In that promo, his point is that he's talking about the title match with Liquid, and using the math stuff to illustrate a point. Here, he's just using math stuff in everyday conversation.
I get he's "math guy" but what else is there? So far all I've picked up is that he's kinda an asshole and uses math terminology. For someone who had multiple vignettes made to get people excited, I'm really let down by the lack of actual "stuff" that he's saying or doing.
- MaxOfFewTrades
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When I brought up how certain characters are being written completely out of character, I was told. "That I shouldn't expect characters to be faithful to the source material" I disagree with that HEAVILY, but its apparently how the VGCW universe works, and I'm learning to deal with it, and I guess you need to do so as well.
There's a very big, obvious difference between someone being written out of character and a character being written in-character but written badly. I think Asura might be written out of character which is why I'm not as perturbed by him, but Armstrong, Falcon and (I'm assuming) Sho are supposed to be their original incarnations and I just think the writing for those three characters has been very weak this season.
Edited by Prozach, Jun 14 2016, 10:34 PM.
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Mosaique
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Jun 14 2016, 10:37 PM
Post #540
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>dirtsheets
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- KOS-MOS
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- Kazuma Kiryu
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- Season 10 started in March 2015
- Season 10 had 13 Episodes, and "4" title matches. If you count challenge tower and Nappa's cash in, it had eight title matches
- Season 11 had 15 Episodes, and 4 title matches
- Season 12, the current season, has approximately 15-16 episodes total and 3 title matches.
- In two of three title matches, Barret Wallace got free title shots, even though he lost the last #1 Contenders match in Season 11. If he won that match, the stipulation would've been identical.
- The final title shot was earned through Royal Rumble, in which Phoenix Wright won.
- In other words, over a span of year, VGCW Champion became much less active. Furthermore, the champion's title bout did not involve contenders match at all in the current season.
- In one of Barret Wallace's title match, M. Bison interrupted the match
- M. Bison's stable, Shadaloo, has record of 2-6.
- Ganondorf, current Mr. Money in the Bank, had perfect opportunity to cash in at Mega Evolution akin to RVD at One Night Stand, making Dracula vs Ganondorf as the main event
- Instead, he is currently stuck in angle with BLU Rogues, and they get little plot segment in comparison to Zangief and Shadaloo.
- The possibility of Demoman and Ganondorf, two remaining black men in VGCW, becoming tag champions is hilarious, but chance of that happening is bleak.
- Eliminating
and , Ganondorf going for VGCW belt at End Game renders the whole angle pointless, because Ganondorf could've done so at Mega Evolution.
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