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Season 12 Discussion; VGCW: World Tour!
Topic Started: Jan 5 2016, 04:35 PM (92,482 Views)
ancara22
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I played The Game and got stuck with Dunn for a month.
MaxOfFewTrades
Apr 20 2016, 07:09 PM
I just want to say that literately every plot thread going on in the show with the exception of Shadaloo has been amazing and I look forward to all of them.

I realize my input might not count for much, but once this is all over. I highly suggest you let the game set up the plot for you from now on rather then trying to force it. Wily being casual champ, Vegeta becoming King, these plot threads are amazing and you never planned for ether of them to ever happen.

People were more then happy to cheer Bison as a midcard Face, but because you figure he should be a villain you tore down the possibility of that to shoe horn him into a villain role that he's never been shown to be able to handle. Not to mention he recruited Falcon, who's been having trouble, and Asura who is doing just fine, but we've seen that EBDW stats don't effect anything when a character moves shows.

How about you let the game choose who the next big bad of the season is? Who is getting the most natural heat? How can you build on that subtlety.

I only say this because I get the feeling that you plan on having Sho being this huge deal, when its possible he'll end up just like Bison, trying to do things that he realistically can't be expected too in this game.
I've also been feeling this way lately about the Shadowloo plot stuff. Whilst it's all fine and good, guys like Asura get to go full MURDER EVERYTHING mode for our entertainment when they get matches, and Falcon pretty much becoming a mass army of squashed clones is hilarious in and of itself, I think that after EGX2, we should let the game give us new material to work with after perhaps whatever happens at EGX2, or after maybe 1-2 episodes of Season 13.

Prob. just me, but there's just nothing quite like a bit of #2Kwality to bring about entertainment, plot and matches we never knew we ever wanted to see until then, that also ends up a lot of the time a LOT more fun than what the intended plans were going to be. After all, how else would we have gotten the pure comedy GOLDE that was Mortal Kongbat, or Gief deciding to win the MitB Sanic fast, or just X Mode in general? Perhaps some unknowns or even just letting the game storybook for a bit might just be what the Doc ordered. But that's just what a single mark for this show here thinks about the issue, so perhaps I'm just being silly about it all in the end. :lakitu:
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Rude_Semprini
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Well, it would be fantastic if we could just make villains out what the game gives us, but it's really not as simple as that. The game gives us great situations for comedy, but not necessarily great moments for villainy. Think of all the best heels we've had, Guile, Break Man, Groose, Dracula, Nightmare Gabe, Senator Phoenix, Armstrong. None of them "naturally" occured. None of them just did nasty things due to the game mechanics and that was written around them. Guile was turned into a villain due to viewer apathy. Break Man was turned into a villain due to his failure at being a hero. Groose was turned into a villain to give him something to do. All of them had to be pushed into villainy, and then we had to see if the game would let that happen.

So I'm not really sure HOW we would just make villains based on what happens in the matches. The closest we've got right now is Waluigi maybe turning heel, and he's hardly going to be the main villain of a season. Shadaloo is in an unfortunate situation where we're trying to get new villains and the game has just crossed it's arms and gone "NOPE." They're not natural villains, but then, no villain is right at the start. If Break Man had lost matches when he turned heel instead of won, he'd have been laughed at as a joke as well. But because he won them instead, he's regarded as the best villain we have.
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GirthIgnorer
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I don't mind the Bison heel turn and the main event fuckery. Doing it in a retirement match was a pretty iffy decision but I think TOH's legit when he says that's the most dastardly thing he'll pull.

What I do think is hurts is the loss of agency. Are you supposed to blame Flint? Or because he's seemingly acting under the will of by Bison, should you hate Bison? Or should you blame the showrunners because they're the ones who made the decision to have Flint act under the will of Bison?

I think I'm firmly in camp 2, because as much as I prattle on about the show I'm willing to tag along for whatever. I think this problem is the problem the Robot Masters season faced, right into the RNG not going the way we want it to. Admittedly, Bison can write off his defeat, his lackey's defeat, and Dan personally eliminating said lackeys from the Rumble as "bwaha, it was all part of my master plan!" But that seems sterile compared to the tone that's worked best for VGCW.

I was one of the people who actually liked the Robot Masters thing right up until the end, which I'll get into later. I'm a huge Breaking Bad fan and something that always with stuck me about one of the post-show podcasts that Vince Gilligan did with a show editor, Kelly Dixon(if you're a fan, you should check it out! They're doing Better Call Saul as well) is that they had no fear of backing themselves into a corner. If they backed themselves into a corner plotwise, they'd devise some insane reason for Walt and Jesse to escape peril to reach the endgame they had in mind, which I feel worked for the benefit of the show.

I'm not saying VGCW should be Breaking Bad quality. Frankly, I'm not even asking for an aversion of course, because we're already 2/3rds of the way through the season. It might be contrary to the tone of my post, but I actually want the showrunners to stay true to the course. My complaint about the Robot Masters season is that we were right there, a few episodes out from End Game, when the rug was completely ripped out from under Proto-Man and Grey Fox in a knowing nod to the audience's complaints. Given how effective Proto-Man has been as a heel, I can't really complain, but it just felt like a middle finger to the people who bothered to go along for the ride.

TL;DR: From its core audience the show enjoyed rave reviews from Season 11, a season where if there were season-long plots in mind irrelevant of match outcome they were either tertiary or FUCKING MASTERFUL in their subtle implementation. Mapping things out End Game to End Game just ends in RNG disaster and unmercifully long hand-wringing posts like this one.

Season has otherwise owned, though, and the only reason I'm posting this is because the showrunners have been pretty fuckin' rad about their openness to criticism. You guys have been doing tremendous work.
Edited by GirthIgnorer, Apr 22 2016, 02:07 AM.
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MaxOfFewTrades

Absolutely, this has been an amazing season, Shadaloo is the only downside. And the only reason its getting as much flak as it is, is because its supposed to be the one we talk about, its meant to be the big deal of the season.

Where really we just wanna see Vegeta, Gary, and Wily doing there thing.
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Introbulus
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Bison didn't really have much mic personality going into season 12, so making him the big bad was a gamble from the start.

And I think we were all on board for that, right up until Blood Money, and leading into a rather embarrassing streak of losses and underperformance.

Crazy as this sounds, part of me wants to say that it would almost have been better for them to be MORE villianous - with backstage ambushes, little league face crushing, all culminating in something bigger like the Flint brainwashing we saw at Mega Evolution.

That being said, there are two things I think haven't been brought up yet that could still be great:

1- Bison uses shadow clones. A single Blood Falcon isn't a threat, but two, against say, Ezio? Could be an edge that they need.

2- Wasn't there supposed to be a connection between Bison and Gameshark this season? I may be misremembering season 11, but I thought that was implied at the XI end game stinger.
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YOLOisfox
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HOT FAT TOUGH
Okay so people saying we want natural big bads let me put a list of all the heels and people who get heat and see what we get.

Nappa- Hahahahaha No!

Ebisumaru-Nope

Gary-Not really

Armstrong-Maybe and that might be what there doing so yea.

Break Man and Air Man- I wouldn't really want it so naw.

Groose-Oh that's rich.

Ganondorf-Nope nope nope.

Sho-Give him time

Zangief-That's not gonna happen.

Ridely-Give him time

Guile-Already happened.

Ok that's all I can think off
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Soundwave
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If you want TOH and company to "let the game choose a heel" then you'd probably get a moment like Dan throwing Ash out of the rumble that creates a new heel people want to boo naturally.
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WhytePanther
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Remember last year when we were excited for this?
Isn't that basically what Waluigi pinning Zubaz at the end of the Casual Contender 6-man was?
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YOLOisfox
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HOT FAT TOUGH
But is Waluigi a big bad heel? Dan was a great heel and an amazing Dragon to Dracula but not a big bad.
Edited by YOLOisfox, Apr 23 2016, 10:44 AM.
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Cheer This Dan
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Big Hoss
WhytePanther
Apr 23 2016, 10:41 AM
Isn't that basically what Waluigi pinning Zubaz at the end of the Casual Contender 6-man was?
Which is kind of ending up a little silly because nearly everyone got over it really fast and just went back to cheering him again. So now similar to say Wily he's a heel everyone likes.
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WhytePanther
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Remember last year when we were excited for this?
Yeah, I guess the audience couldn't really stay mad at Waluigi. Which is weird, because he should by all rights be a heel, but then again so should all the other villains in the show. Which is kind of the entire point we're going on about. But I don't know that anything the game could do, whether in one match or many, could really create a good organic season villain.

As for Dan, he wasn't as well liked before eliminating Red, so he was able to become a heel and stay one. Raw Power exploding helped that out a lot. A story was written around that, but he wasn't really the star of the whole Drac Pack story. If he hadn't been getting the boos, it could just as easily have been someone else. And Dracula was the villain because... well, he's Dracula. And he did his stuff that season in a way that he really didn't have to win any matches.
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AaronTheBaron
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Yo, it's me. It's me. It's A.T.B.
I also want to say, in terms of letting the game make a villain naturally, that's a bit hard in terms of the fact that there are traditional heelish things (dirty pins, low blows, etc.) that faces do in the game. Heavy won the Casual Title after Dirty Pinning Groose, and Johnny Cage nary has a match without a low blow.

There are some chances for turning people via the game mechanics cooperating, Wah's moderate heel turn and possible development being an example, but those are few and far between.

In terms of in the Rumble, the only one this past Prime Rumble who really did anything close to letting that work in terms of being heelish via eliminations was Sabin, who eliminated both Zubaz and Snake.
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Potatosaurusrex
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You guys are ignoring the big picture here. If Season 8's Proto Man taught us anything, it's that Shadaloo will all become really over faces at End Game X2.
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Mr. Target
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Dicks " B E S T G M " Oak
since we're discussing "Organic" heels, I still think it was a mistake turning Dan face. Not that he wasn't over, far from it. The issue was that turning the most over Heel in the company created a huge heel void which yet to be filled. Especially with a tough crowd like the VGCW. We just cheer bad guys.

Once you go face, you'll never turn back.
Edited by Mr. Target, Apr 25 2016, 11:54 PM.
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VS21
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Mr. Target
Apr 25 2016, 05:01 PM
since we're discussing "Organic" heel, I still think it was a mistake turning Dan face. Not that he wasn't over, far from it. The issue was that turning the most over Heel in the company created a huge heel void which yet to be filled. Especially with a tough crowd like the VGCW. We just cheer bad guys.

Once you go face, you'll never turn back.
We have Guile as a heel and he's been working it fabulously....Not to mention Break Man has been awesome with his heel work and depending on what happens with Morrigan and Cooking Mama, Duke maybe going heel as well....

Besides what you say is true but sometimes the opposite is true as well, especially with Guile and Break Man...Once you turn heel, you're never going back....
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